Суди попередніх інстанцій визнали протиправними дії ТЦК щодо мобілізації чоловіка і зобов’язали військову частину звільнити його з військової служби, але Верховний Суд вказав, що це неефективний спосіб захисту.
When under attack, countries rescind the freedom and rights of a subset of its population, in order to maintain them for the rest.
In a democratic country, the laws to do that are created in advance, and the power to wield them assigned through election.
Everyone hopes they will never be necessary, but we can’t be surprised that when under military invasion, they are used.
“Meatgrinder” effectively illustrates the pointlessness of war, but you are using it as if to dismiss the fact that sustaining that same “meatgrinder” is the only reason the country of Ukraine still exists.
I’m Finnish. I am watching everything that happens in Ukraine as something that might happen to my country, and to me personally. In a paralell universe, Ukraine is at peace, and we’re the ones suffering a pointless “special military operation”. If Putin was smart, and looked to the future, going for our lithium reserves would have made a lot more sense than the fossil fuel resources of Ukraine. (Then again, rare earth minerals are present in Ukraine, too)
And you misunderstand me. I do not want you dead. I do not want you fighting for me. I do not “support” war.
But I understand the systems and mechanisms of a nation, which maintain its existense. The standards of a peacetime government can only be so high, because maintaining them does not risk trading in the existence of the nation that is upholding them.
Should there be a trial afterwards, investigating sacrifices that were obviously pointless? Absolutely.
And is there a point where the sacrifice is no longer worth it in comparison to surrender? To this, I have no answer.
I would probably trade in my country, to see my friends and family spared. But I am a lot less certain that would result in a better world afterwards.
“Meatgrinder” effectively illustrates the pointlessness of war, but you are using it as if to dismiss the fact that sustaining that same “meatgrinder” is the only reason the country of Ukraine still exists.
It absolutely would, and would be extremely better off than it is now, what are you talking about?
The reason behind a need for kidnappings is that (well, among other reasons, but that’s the biggest one of course) Zelensky wanted to join NATO. NATO recently said that Ukraine will not join. So the war was pointless to such a ridiculous degree that I don’t have words to express it. It led to loss of people, territories, infrastructure and everything else and gained absolutely nothing (except billions stolen by the regime and huge debt of course). It was, and still is, all Zelensky’s choice.
Anyway, nothing justifies what Zelensky does. Russia is literally liberating the people under Zelensky’s regime. If I stayed in Ukraine (on Zelensky controlled territory) I would be his slave and maybe already dead. If I was on territory liberated by Russia on the other hand - I would be no less free than I was before/am now. What you are describing as “being ‘conquered’ by Russia” is absolutely a preferential scenario to living under Zelensky’s regime (supported by “free and democratic” “world”) that is going to kill you.
It absolutely would, and would be extremely better off than it is now, what are you talking about?
That is a discussion with no resolution. Like I said, I don’t know where the point is, when sacrifice become worse than surrender.
Particularly because both are unknowable quantities.
You seem to consider the matter from a purely personal perspective, which is perfectly valid, but will of course result in different conclusions than someone who cares about what changes it would mean for society, and the state of the world. And you obviously view Russia a lot more favorably than I do. I’m not interested in changing your mind there.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think the western world should tolerate any of this. I think Ukraine should have been admitted into NATO, immediately, and for article 5 to have been retroactively shoved up Putin’s ass before this ever got out of hand.
I think, that in similar fashion to Russia, the western world has the power to end the conflict tomorrow, and is failing to do so.
That is a discussion with no resolution. Like I said, I don’t know where the point is, when sacrifice become worse than surrender.
So maybe the people that are actually affected should be able decide that (as opposed to a single dictator with western support)? Currently, thanks to western support of Zelensky, the only way people can “decide” anything is by doing a violent revolution against the regime, which would not have a good chance of success due to weapon supplies to Zelensky’s regime. Or by individually resisting/killing “draft “officers”” and bombing ““recruitment centers””… Which people already do but on a small scale so it doesn’t change the big picture…
You seem to consider the matter from a purely personal perspective
What do you mean exactly here? I left Ukraine before the war started, so from “personal perspective” I am actually safe (unless Zelensky manages to convince other countries to send back his cannon fodder…). I am considering this from the perspective of people (among whom my family and friends) who still live under Zelensky’s regime. Who are nothing more than slaves, cannon fodder for Zelensky and his supporters.
And you obviously view Russia a lot more favorably than I do.
FWIW I don’t consider Russia a good/bad country. I only speak of it in comparison to Ukraine, where it is objectively better and more free.
You are offended by a leader that sends his people to die in defense. As you should be. Such a thing is horrifying.
What I do not understand, is your preference for a leader guilty of the very same crime, but for the difference that he sends people to die, in offense.
If Ukraine surrenders, this will all happen again the next time Putin would like some more territory.
And then, you and the people you care about, would be subject to the very same danger that current citizens of russia are. If not even moreso.
Why would Putin sacrifice from his pools of supporters, when he can conscript from newly conquered territory, amassing a force to take the next slice of Europe that tickles his fancy?
What I do not understand, is your preference for a leader guilty of the very same crime, but for the difference that he sends people to die, in offense.
Do you see a difference between people being kidnapped off the streets and sent to die (Ukraine) and people being paid to join the army (Russia) (basically just a high risk job)?
I don’t know why are you even comparing those two scenarios…
If Ukraine surrenders, this will all happen again the next time Putin would like some more territory.
This is a speculation.
And then, you and the people you care about, would be subject to the very same danger that current citizens of russia are. If not even moreso.
Why would Putin sacrifice from his pools of supporters, when he can conscript from newly conquered territory?
What is this danger? Tell me more about it. Is it the danger of being able to leave the country at any moment? Is it the danger of not being kidnapped off the street and instead being offered a voluntary contract to join army?
Russia has mandatory military conscription. If they want to send you to war, they can, and will, paid or unpaid. Is this news to you? The laws are in place, but Putin is avoiding them for fear of national backlash.
Do you think the country would go into uproar if he used those laws on the people who fought back for three years? I’m not sure it would even if he pulled it on his own people. Not for a while at least.
The difference, is population size. Putin is allowing it to be voluntary, because he can still afford to (he actually can’t, and russias economy is eating itself alive to be able to keep paying fighters more and more, as normal jobs have to pay more and more, due to labour shortages as more and more working age adults are lost to the war… It’s a vicious cycle that’s going to culminate in involuntary conscription being the only option left to keep invading).
But Russia can, has, and I am absolutely certain, will, send people to die against their will.
And it is “happening again” right now. Last time, it was Georgia.
Russia has mandatory military conscription. If they want to send you to war, they can, and will, paid or unpaid. Is this news to you? The laws are in place, but Putin is avoiding them for fear of national backlash.
Why this would be news to me, and how is this relevant to out conversation? In Ukraine people are forbidden to leave the country so that they can be kidnapped off the streets and used as cannon fodder. In Russia neither is happening.
and russias economy is eating itself alive to be able to keep paying fighters more and more
Yeah western medias are talking for three years now about an imminent economic collapse of Russia and every time it doesn’t happen, but instead it becomes a fourth largest economy in the world…
It’s a vicious cycle that’s going to culminate in involuntary conscription being the only option left to keep invading
See, you are speaking speculation again (which might or might not happen, I don’t know, I can’t see the future). While I am telling you facts (about closed borders, kidnappings, etc. that do happen in Ukraine but not in Russia).
and I am absolutely certain, will, send people to die against their will.
Speculation again.
And it is “happening again” right now. Last time, it was Georgia.
What exactly happened in Georgia? Russia helped South Ossetia become independent of Georgia, and did not conquer Georgia (which is apparently the goal of an evil Putin who dreams about conquring the world, accorsing to western media) despite its army being a striking distance away from the capital?
I going to stop trying. I can see I’m not going to succeed in changing your mind. You’re holding on tight to some stuff that’s completely immaterial, and I won’t be able to show you what you actively refuse to see.
Just think about what I’ve said. Maybe look some stuff up. Especially when it comes to conditions in russia, and how Putin is bending over backwards to keep the invasion going.
Look into the weapons deals with North Korea, for example.
You got out. You made your decision. You were able to decide to begin with. A lot of people don’t have that option, and that means someone is making decisions for them. I’m not saying that’s a good thing.
But AGAIN, democracy is not a tenable ideal in wartime.
It is a peacetime luxury, often flawed in implementation even then. Frequently too far away from a meritocracy to function efficiently.
You keep bringing it up as if there’s some kind of hypocrisy happening, because you see “democratic” people supporting dictatorship.
But decisionmaking during wartime isn’t something you can just “call a vote” on. Democracy doesn’t work under siege. That’s the whole reason basically every democratic government has the alternate operating mode of martial law, complete with legal systems written up a ready to go.
By personal perspective, I mean exactly that which you are talking about. You, what your situation would be like if you were still there, what it is like right now for the people you care about personally.
Like I said, I would probably trade in my country for those same people, too.
But I’m not sure I could live with it. I care about other things, many of which being a subject of the current Russian state would make it dangerous for me to care about.
When under attack, countries rescind the freedom and rights of a subset of its population, in order to maintain them for the rest.
In a democratic country, the laws to do that are created in advance, and the power to wield them assigned through election.
Everyone hopes they will never be necessary, but we can’t be surprised that when under military invasion, they are used.
“Meatgrinder” effectively illustrates the pointlessness of war, but you are using it as if to dismiss the fact that sustaining that same “meatgrinder” is the only reason the country of Ukraine still exists.
I’m Finnish. I am watching everything that happens in Ukraine as something that might happen to my country, and to me personally. In a paralell universe, Ukraine is at peace, and we’re the ones suffering a pointless “special military operation”. If Putin was smart, and looked to the future, going for our lithium reserves would have made a lot more sense than the fossil fuel resources of Ukraine. (Then again, rare earth minerals are present in Ukraine, too)
And you misunderstand me. I do not want you dead. I do not want you fighting for me. I do not “support” war.
But I understand the systems and mechanisms of a nation, which maintain its existense. The standards of a peacetime government can only be so high, because maintaining them does not risk trading in the existence of the nation that is upholding them.
Should there be a trial afterwards, investigating sacrifices that were obviously pointless? Absolutely.
And is there a point where the sacrifice is no longer worth it in comparison to surrender? To this, I have no answer.
I would probably trade in my country, to see my friends and family spared. But I am a lot less certain that would result in a better world afterwards.
It absolutely would, and would be extremely better off than it is now, what are you talking about?
The reason behind a need for kidnappings is that (well, among other reasons, but that’s the biggest one of course) Zelensky wanted to join NATO. NATO recently said that Ukraine will not join. So the war was pointless to such a ridiculous degree that I don’t have words to express it. It led to loss of people, territories, infrastructure and everything else and gained absolutely nothing (except billions stolen by the regime and huge debt of course). It was, and still is, all Zelensky’s choice.
Anyway, nothing justifies what Zelensky does. Russia is literally liberating the people under Zelensky’s regime. If I stayed in Ukraine (on Zelensky controlled territory) I would be his slave and maybe already dead. If I was on territory liberated by Russia on the other hand - I would be no less free than I was before/am now. What you are describing as “being ‘conquered’ by Russia” is absolutely a preferential scenario to living under Zelensky’s regime (supported by “free and democratic” “world”) that is going to kill you.
That is a discussion with no resolution. Like I said, I don’t know where the point is, when sacrifice become worse than surrender.
Particularly because both are unknowable quantities.
You seem to consider the matter from a purely personal perspective, which is perfectly valid, but will of course result in different conclusions than someone who cares about what changes it would mean for society, and the state of the world. And you obviously view Russia a lot more favorably than I do. I’m not interested in changing your mind there.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think the western world should tolerate any of this. I think Ukraine should have been admitted into NATO, immediately, and for article 5 to have been retroactively shoved up Putin’s ass before this ever got out of hand.
I think, that in similar fashion to Russia, the western world has the power to end the conflict tomorrow, and is failing to do so.
So maybe the people that are actually affected should be able decide that (as opposed to a single dictator with western support)? Currently, thanks to western support of Zelensky, the only way people can “decide” anything is by doing a violent revolution against the regime, which would not have a good chance of success due to weapon supplies to Zelensky’s regime. Or by individually resisting/killing “draft “officers”” and bombing ““recruitment centers””… Which people already do but on a small scale so it doesn’t change the big picture…
What do you mean exactly here? I left Ukraine before the war started, so from “personal perspective” I am actually safe (unless Zelensky manages to convince other countries to send back his cannon fodder…). I am considering this from the perspective of people (among whom my family and friends) who still live under Zelensky’s regime. Who are nothing more than slaves, cannon fodder for Zelensky and his supporters.
FWIW I don’t consider Russia a good/bad country. I only speak of it in comparison to Ukraine, where it is objectively better and more free.
Let me put it like this.
You are offended by a leader that sends his people to die in defense. As you should be. Such a thing is horrifying.
What I do not understand, is your preference for a leader guilty of the very same crime, but for the difference that he sends people to die, in offense.
If Ukraine surrenders, this will all happen again the next time Putin would like some more territory.
And then, you and the people you care about, would be subject to the very same danger that current citizens of russia are. If not even moreso.
Why would Putin sacrifice from his pools of supporters, when he can conscript from newly conquered territory, amassing a force to take the next slice of Europe that tickles his fancy?
Maybe you’ll be sent to fight us finns?
Do you see a difference between people being kidnapped off the streets and sent to die (Ukraine) and people being paid to join the army (Russia) (basically just a high risk job)?
I don’t know why are you even comparing those two scenarios…
This is a speculation.
What is this danger? Tell me more about it. Is it the danger of being able to leave the country at any moment? Is it the danger of not being kidnapped off the street and instead being offered a voluntary contract to join army?
Russia has mandatory military conscription. If they want to send you to war, they can, and will, paid or unpaid. Is this news to you? The laws are in place, but Putin is avoiding them for fear of national backlash.
Do you think the country would go into uproar if he used those laws on the people who fought back for three years? I’m not sure it would even if he pulled it on his own people. Not for a while at least.
The difference, is population size. Putin is allowing it to be voluntary, because he can still afford to (he actually can’t, and russias economy is eating itself alive to be able to keep paying fighters more and more, as normal jobs have to pay more and more, due to labour shortages as more and more working age adults are lost to the war… It’s a vicious cycle that’s going to culminate in involuntary conscription being the only option left to keep invading).
But Russia can, has, and I am absolutely certain, will, send people to die against their will.
And it is “happening again” right now. Last time, it was Georgia.
Why this would be news to me, and how is this relevant to out conversation? In Ukraine people are forbidden to leave the country so that they can be kidnapped off the streets and used as cannon fodder. In Russia neither is happening.
Yeah western medias are talking for three years now about an imminent economic collapse of Russia and every time it doesn’t happen, but instead it becomes a fourth largest economy in the world…
See, you are speaking speculation again (which might or might not happen, I don’t know, I can’t see the future). While I am telling you facts (about closed borders, kidnappings, etc. that do happen in Ukraine but not in Russia).
Speculation again.
What exactly happened in Georgia? Russia helped South Ossetia become independent of Georgia, and did not conquer Georgia (which is apparently the goal of an evil Putin who dreams about conquring the world, accorsing to western media) despite its army being a striking distance away from the capital?
I going to stop trying. I can see I’m not going to succeed in changing your mind. You’re holding on tight to some stuff that’s completely immaterial, and I won’t be able to show you what you actively refuse to see.
Just think about what I’ve said. Maybe look some stuff up. Especially when it comes to conditions in russia, and how Putin is bending over backwards to keep the invasion going.
Look into the weapons deals with North Korea, for example.
You got out. You made your decision. You were able to decide to begin with. A lot of people don’t have that option, and that means someone is making decisions for them. I’m not saying that’s a good thing.
But AGAIN, democracy is not a tenable ideal in wartime.
It is a peacetime luxury, often flawed in implementation even then. Frequently too far away from a meritocracy to function efficiently.
You keep bringing it up as if there’s some kind of hypocrisy happening, because you see “democratic” people supporting dictatorship.
But decisionmaking during wartime isn’t something you can just “call a vote” on. Democracy doesn’t work under siege. That’s the whole reason basically every democratic government has the alternate operating mode of martial law, complete with legal systems written up a ready to go.
By personal perspective, I mean exactly that which you are talking about. You, what your situation would be like if you were still there, what it is like right now for the people you care about personally.
Like I said, I would probably trade in my country for those same people, too.
But I’m not sure I could live with it. I care about other things, many of which being a subject of the current Russian state would make it dangerous for me to care about.