I’ll say, I feel this. I love FOSS, and I love the BuyEuropean movement as well, but I’m also always scared this will turn nationalistic, which I’m not a big fan of…
You’re taking it too literally. I don’t know if nationalists tend to be anti-EU, though you’re right that a lot of them are, but I was using nationalistic there very loosely to refer to the negative aspects of nationalistic ideology as applied to Europe — and the EU, in particular.
That being said, it’s very easy to get hooked into a Buy European craze and then shift into Buy YourNation, which can quickly turn into “We’re better than everyone else and if you don’t think that you’re a traitor” and so on and so on…
Eh I just don’t see it… There are just too many ideological conflicts between being nationalist/myNation and being motivated in participating in the avoid USA movement in the first place.
The way I see it, they are direct opposite crowds.
For example, do you think Canadians are in danger of going full nationalist because they are avoiding usa products now because Trump wants to make them 51st state?
The way I see it, they are direct opposite crowds.
I think that’s very naïve, to be honest. Ideological conflicts? I think conservatism is hypocrisy, and nationalism is inherently contradicting and artificial. “No hate like Christian love” is a saying for a reason. Those “crowds,” as you put it — and by the way, it’s very easy for anyone to be roped in to any ideology, so I don’t think it’s really a kind of person that believes any given thing, more so a person that happened to have been exposed to this and that at some point or another — are hypocritical, contradicting, and malleable. Well, that’s my take, anyway.
For example, do you think Canadians are in danger of going full nationalist because they are avoiding usa products now because Trump wants to make them 51st state?
Yes!
If anything, it’s mostly a liberal movement.
Do you mean liberal as in American liberal, progressives? That does seem to be the case, for now. I’m not saying the movement is nationalist yet, I’m saying I think the rhetoric is a little iffy, and I’d rather avoid going down those routes!
I think conservatism is hypocrisy, and nationalism is inherently contradicting and artificial.
I mean sure, but I’m saying these tend to not be the kind of people who want to avoid USA products. Like, afd members are probably not boycotting Teslas or twitter etc right now, if you know what I mean.
No I don’t mean american liberals, i mean its more liberals in general (canada, EU…) supporting this kind of movement, american liberal leaning people seem to be supportive of it too as far as I can tell.
I can’t speak for others, but at least I am trying to avoid USA products, not because suddenly I feel like local products are superior (in many cases they are not, often there is no alternative at all), I just don’t want to support this corporate capture bullshit in USA. That’s it.
There’s nothing conservative about it. I really don’t know why they called it buyfromEU or buyeuropean or whatever, but what i’m noticing is that if you want to avoid USA products, almost every alternative is from EU (as long as you want to avoid China too). And it’s not really about EU anyway, people promote Canada or UK stuff all the time.
Please be careful with quoting! You need to add a a double-paragraph after the >, otherwise it all gets joined in a single quote block.
I mean sure, but I’m saying these tend to not be the kind of people who want to avoid USA products. Like, afd members are probably not boycotting Teslas or twitter etc right now, if you know what I mean.
I suppose that’s true, but there’s levels to this. AfD is fascistic, no? You’re going into ultra-nationalism there. It’s not that you’re either not a nationalist or AfD. I know that’s not what you said, but what you did say just doesn’t really mean much, IMO. Nationalists can easily support the idea of rejecting foreign products! That’s something very nationalistic. I don’t think we should mistake nationalism, in general, with the worship of capital; they are often connected because conservatives are hypocrites, but they are not the same. AfD, from my understanding as an outsider, is just another fascist party rising in the EU with the strict goal of furthering capital and their own interests, using populism as a tool to get people on their side. I hope I’m making sense here…
No I don’t mean american liberals, i mean its more liberals in general (canada, EU…) supporting this kind of movement
Uh, no, I disagree. I don’t see a lot of liberals supporting this at all. Then again, I’m on Lemmy where seemingly every other person is a leftist. I mean, a big part of the movement, from what I’ve seen, is a critique and rejection of American free-market capitalism, which is not a particularly liberal position at all. You see people clamouring for state adoption of decentralized social media, and the idea has been pushed (on Reddit, and I believe here as well) of an EU-funded public social platform for EU citizens. I don’t think that sort of position aligns with liberal policy; rather, it aligns with a leftist, socialist perspective. I’d say.
I really don’t know why they called it buyfromEU or buyeuropean or whatever, but what i’m noticing is that if you want to avoid USA products, almost every alternative is from EU (as long as you want to avoid China too). And it’s not really about EU anyway, people promote Canada or UK stuff all the time.
It does have the EU flag, but it’s about Europe as a whole. Even when they say EU, it’s shifted to include the UK and other non-EU countries. It’s just that the EU has better regulations, so it’s usually a better choice, as a consumer.
Also, I’m pretty sure it got called Buy From EU because they wanted to create some sort of tribal attachment and appeal to a broader cultural connection, therefore highlighting the cultural divide between Americans and “Europeans.” Culture, culture, culture… Huh, I wonder what ideology has such a focus on culture… Bingo!
And please, the goal is not to “avoid USA products.” That’s not what this is about, and if you make it about that then it’s not a question of if nationalism will creep in; it’s a certainty. Make it about supporting EU-businesses, about strengthening the regional economy, and about showing that great products and services can be produced outside of monopolies!
Also, I’m pretty sure it got called Buy From EU because they wanted to create some sort of tribal attachment and appeal to a broader cultural connection, therefore highlighting the cultural divide between Americans and “Europeans.” Culture, culture, culture… Huh, I wonder what ideology has such a focus on culture… Bingo!
Yes I’m sure it’s a “marketing” thing, to be catchy. I don’t think its about divide, though. I still don’t dislike americans or think that europeans are superior somehow, I just think this year has shown as that USA as a country can’t be relied on and it would be dangerous to continue to do so. Hence why avoid their products. I don’t like that youtube has no alternative and literally everyone and their grandma around me are using facebook messenger, for example. If everyone here stopped using these (not going to happen btw), it wouldn’t be because of nationalism, I tell you that.
And please, the goal is not to “avoid USA products.” That’s not what this is about, and if you make it about that then it’s not a question of if nationalism will creep in; it’s a certainty. Make it about supporting EU-businesses, about strengthening the regional economy, and about showing that great products and services can be produced outside of monopolies!
I’m a bit confused why you think this isn’t about avoiding USA products and why you say it with such confidence. The president of USA said/did bad things, the movement started/skyrocketed to avoid USA products, its not rocket science.
Make it about supporting EU-businesses, about strengthening the regional economy, and about showing that great products and services can be produced outside of monopolies!
I just think this year has shown as that USA as a country can’t be relied on and it would be dangerous to continue to do so. Hence why avoid their products.
Well yeah, you’re a reasonable person. I really don’t trust the average consumer to be a reasonable person, though. Hey, call me paranoid!
I’m a bit confused why you think this isn’t about avoiding USA products and why you say it with such confidence. The president of USA said/did bad things, the movement started/skyrocketed to avoid USA products, its not rocket science.
I’ll be upfront. I say it like that because I think it needs to be that.
This movement started out protectionist; you’re right about that. It was about culling imports from the US, and it was jump-started by negative feeling regarding the US and Trump’s policies, namely the tariffs. Protectionism is nationalistic, by the way. But boycotting is fickle and vapid, for most. Coca-Cola, Nestlé… They get boycotted occasionally, but it never works. The same would be true for a US boycott. That’s why this can’t be a boycott, it needs to be something else, which is why I want to push that perspective and that sort of approach. Now, this movement already has some other characteristics: it’s pointing out alternatives rather than just showing what not to do, it’s focusing on internal benefits (GDPR, warranty, consumer protection) rather than a rejection of foreign goods, it’s uniting people rather than dividing… So it’s already become quite different than when it started. I remember seeing “Boycott US” flyers, but now I see “Buy From EU.” I saw American flags with a cross over them, now I see EU flags. At this point, I think it’s not so much aspirational on my part, and just accurate to say that it’s not about boycotting the US.
I didn’t meant to make it sound simple or obvious… Or event that I’m particularly confident. I don’t want you to read this and think that I’m talking down to you or something, I’m really just saying what I think. I just feel like these paragraphs I’m writing sound a little conceited, sorry about that!
I’ll say, I feel this. I love FOSS, and I love the BuyEuropean movement as well, but I’m also always scared this will turn nationalistic, which I’m not a big fan of…
Precisely my feelings. I hope it doesn’t turn out to in the negative way, but I’m afraid of some of the vitriol I’m seeing already
How would that work though? Nationalistic people tend to be anti-EU, no?
You’re taking it too literally. I don’t know if nationalists tend to be anti-EU, though you’re right that a lot of them are, but I was using nationalistic there very loosely to refer to the negative aspects of nationalistic ideology as applied to Europe — and the EU, in particular.
That being said, it’s very easy to get hooked into a Buy European craze and then shift into Buy YourNation, which can quickly turn into “We’re better than everyone else and if you don’t think that you’re a traitor” and so on and so on…
Eh I just don’t see it… There are just too many ideological conflicts between being nationalist/myNation and being motivated in participating in the avoid USA movement in the first place. The way I see it, they are direct opposite crowds.
For example, do you think Canadians are in danger of going full nationalist because they are avoiding usa products now because Trump wants to make them 51st state?
If anything, it’s mostly a liberal movement.
I think that’s very naïve, to be honest. Ideological conflicts? I think conservatism is hypocrisy, and nationalism is inherently contradicting and artificial. “No hate like Christian love” is a saying for a reason. Those “crowds,” as you put it — and by the way, it’s very easy for anyone to be roped in to any ideology, so I don’t think it’s really a kind of person that believes any given thing, more so a person that happened to have been exposed to this and that at some point or another — are hypocritical, contradicting, and malleable. Well, that’s my take, anyway.
Yes!
Do you mean liberal as in American liberal, progressives? That does seem to be the case, for now. I’m not saying the movement is nationalist yet, I’m saying I think the rhetoric is a little iffy, and I’d rather avoid going down those routes!
I mean sure, but I’m saying these tend to not be the kind of people who want to avoid USA products. Like, afd members are probably not boycotting Teslas or twitter etc right now, if you know what I mean.
No I don’t mean american liberals, i mean its more liberals in general (canada, EU…) supporting this kind of movement, american liberal leaning people seem to be supportive of it too as far as I can tell.
I can’t speak for others, but at least I am trying to avoid USA products, not because suddenly I feel like local products are superior (in many cases they are not, often there is no alternative at all), I just don’t want to support this corporate capture bullshit in USA. That’s it. There’s nothing conservative about it. I really don’t know why they called it buyfromEU or buyeuropean or whatever, but what i’m noticing is that if you want to avoid USA products, almost every alternative is from EU (as long as you want to avoid China too). And it’s not really about EU anyway, people promote Canada or UK stuff all the time.
Please be careful with quoting! You need to add a a double-paragraph after the >, otherwise it all gets joined in a single quote block.
I suppose that’s true, but there’s levels to this. AfD is fascistic, no? You’re going into ultra-nationalism there. It’s not that you’re either not a nationalist or AfD. I know that’s not what you said, but what you did say just doesn’t really mean much, IMO. Nationalists can easily support the idea of rejecting foreign products! That’s something very nationalistic. I don’t think we should mistake nationalism, in general, with the worship of capital; they are often connected because conservatives are hypocrites, but they are not the same. AfD, from my understanding as an outsider, is just another fascist party rising in the EU with the strict goal of furthering capital and their own interests, using populism as a tool to get people on their side. I hope I’m making sense here…
Uh, no, I disagree. I don’t see a lot of liberals supporting this at all. Then again, I’m on Lemmy where seemingly every other person is a leftist. I mean, a big part of the movement, from what I’ve seen, is a critique and rejection of American free-market capitalism, which is not a particularly liberal position at all. You see people clamouring for state adoption of decentralized social media, and the idea has been pushed (on Reddit, and I believe here as well) of an EU-funded public social platform for EU citizens. I don’t think that sort of position aligns with liberal policy; rather, it aligns with a leftist, socialist perspective. I’d say.
It does have the EU flag, but it’s about Europe as a whole. Even when they say EU, it’s shifted to include the UK and other non-EU countries. It’s just that the EU has better regulations, so it’s usually a better choice, as a consumer.
Also, I’m pretty sure it got called Buy From EU because they wanted to create some sort of tribal attachment and appeal to a broader cultural connection, therefore highlighting the cultural divide between Americans and “Europeans.” Culture, culture, culture… Huh, I wonder what ideology has such a focus on culture… Bingo!
And please, the goal is not to “avoid USA products.” That’s not what this is about, and if you make it about that then it’s not a question of if nationalism will creep in; it’s a certainty. Make it about supporting EU-businesses, about strengthening the regional economy, and about showing that great products and services can be produced outside of monopolies!
Yes I’m sure it’s a “marketing” thing, to be catchy. I don’t think its about divide, though. I still don’t dislike americans or think that europeans are superior somehow, I just think this year has shown as that USA as a country can’t be relied on and it would be dangerous to continue to do so. Hence why avoid their products. I don’t like that youtube has no alternative and literally everyone and their grandma around me are using facebook messenger, for example. If everyone here stopped using these (not going to happen btw), it wouldn’t be because of nationalism, I tell you that.
I’m a bit confused why you think this isn’t about avoiding USA products and why you say it with such confidence. The president of USA said/did bad things, the movement started/skyrocketed to avoid USA products, its not rocket science.
Yes, I think that’s it.
Well yeah, you’re a reasonable person. I really don’t trust the average consumer to be a reasonable person, though. Hey, call me paranoid!
I’ll be upfront. I say it like that because I think it needs to be that.
This movement started out protectionist; you’re right about that. It was about culling imports from the US, and it was jump-started by negative feeling regarding the US and Trump’s policies, namely the tariffs. Protectionism is nationalistic, by the way. But boycotting is fickle and vapid, for most. Coca-Cola, Nestlé… They get boycotted occasionally, but it never works. The same would be true for a US boycott. That’s why this can’t be a boycott, it needs to be something else, which is why I want to push that perspective and that sort of approach. Now, this movement already has some other characteristics: it’s pointing out alternatives rather than just showing what not to do, it’s focusing on internal benefits (GDPR, warranty, consumer protection) rather than a rejection of foreign goods, it’s uniting people rather than dividing… So it’s already become quite different than when it started. I remember seeing “Boycott US” flyers, but now I see “Buy From EU.” I saw American flags with a cross over them, now I see EU flags. At this point, I think it’s not so much aspirational on my part, and just accurate to say that it’s not about boycotting the US.
I didn’t meant to make it sound simple or obvious… Or event that I’m particularly confident. I don’t want you to read this and think that I’m talking down to you or something, I’m really just saying what I think. I just feel like these paragraphs I’m writing sound a little conceited, sorry about that!